sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
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Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Feb 21, 2024 16:08:14 GMT -5
50cc stock exhaust mount, vmc Chinese parts 50.00 shows dimensions and bearing size, may need to use the long axle
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 21, 2024 16:20:41 GMT -5
Get one from the Chinese dual shock scooter, be the same just not look as cool I don't think the RC-One torsen matches up to other platforms. I'll take a look though.
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Post by 808ministroke on Feb 21, 2024 16:27:29 GMT -5
I was looking at torsen brackets. Can't hurt to beef up the support a little, especially with a big rider on bumpy roads jumping the front around and taking off a lot. My initial impression was that the price is way to high. This is the cheapest one that I know of and it's around $150 US at the current conversion rate without shipping. LMR and 8.1 are $200 and over all-in. www.ffmotori.com/en/product-page/torsen-supporto-ruotaI looked them over and wondered how hard they would be to make. I figured maybe I could do it. The hardest part for me would be the bearing. It's got to be placed precisely and the bearing race has to be machined precisely for an interference fit. I figured a 6"x12" chunk of 3/8" thick aluminum could make the main part of the bracket... just barely with no room for error. I have no way to precisely place and machine a hole for a bearing in that though. I see that F&F and LMR both use caps over the bearings. I figured maybe if I used a 1/2" thick disc to make the cap, then I could bolt that onto the bracket and that could hold the bearing. I'd also need hex rod to make the special axle nut that goes through the bearing. Plus a bearing and bolts. ![](https://i.postimg.cc/zv9ygWj0/cost.jpg) Add the bearing and bolts and it's probably $130+. A discount, but this would take me a great amount of time and there's a risk that it doesn't turn out well. One small mistake somewhere and I could put another $40 or more into it to replace a single piece of material. The mini-lathe doesn't like being very rigid anymore (cleaning and adjustment doesn't seem to handle it now... I think it may need more mods or parts replacements). That makes it even harder to do very precise things. Suddenly the DIY method doesn't sound so good. I just emailed F&F to see if I could get a price, because their site says to email them if out of country or not picking up. Last time I tried that... probably more than 6 months ago... they never replied. It could be that shipping makes it as unreasonable as all of the rest, or I may never know. EDIT : E-mail message returned as a permanent error. I tried to message them on facebook and it returned this message (translated from Italian with google translate) : " Automatic message: Good morning, given the high number of requests we receive on social media, we ask you to kindly send us your questions about our products via email (ff.motori.info@gmail.com) after having verified that the information you need is not already available. present in the product description on our website www.ffmotori.com. Thank you so much for your cooperation and have a nice day!" So it just directs me back to a broken email. Are they out of business? The facebook page hasn't been updated in 3 years. Maybe that's why the price is the best? lol Malossi should make a Torsen for their own engine. I went and emailed these same people asking for a torsion arm for my Piaggio block, I got No response whatsoever or I might have gotten the same error that you got they make some very very nice looking pieces I loved the black ones that they made and how they did all colors in such. I was told by a friend on Instagram who is a moped builder and Racer in the Netherlands to go to this place. It's a shame because although 150 is a lot of money it would be so well worth it that I would think. Let me know if you ever get a hold of these guys or fine anybody that actually creates these and sells them I'm still looking 41 from my own....
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Post by 190mech on Feb 21, 2024 19:08:08 GMT -5
Why not fab one from 4130 tubing or even square tube and some sheet steel..I did one when I made the Snoopy build, the long axle nut was the hardest part to make..
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 21, 2024 19:42:05 GMT -5
Why not fab one from 4130 tubing or even square tube and some sheet steel..I did one when I made the Snoopy build, the long axle nut was the hardest part to make.. That sounds more affordable and easier to figure the bearing out. If I do it, I may have to put a Mastercard sticker on there so nobody thinks I've stopped credit card tuning this thing when they don't see billet. lol Thanks John. It seems like you can always look at something and know the cheapest/simplest effective way to do it. I hoped that someday that would rub off on me, but I still get caught up on one path too often and don't see my surroundings.
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Post by 190mech on Feb 22, 2024 4:53:42 GMT -5
I used a cheap flange mounted bearing that was self centering..Obtaining a premade axle nut for it will likely be easier today than back in the Snoopy build days..
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 22, 2024 8:51:57 GMT -5
Obtaining a premade axle nut for it will likely be easier today than back in the Snoopy build days.. It's about $50 from 8.1 shipped. I think it has one of those tension ring things like Piaggio uses to keep the primary drive shaft snug in the cover bearing. Piaggio calls it a compensator ring, but googling that brings up pool supplies. I could mess up and still have material left for less $, plus make the nut to dimensions that work for whatever I do. I do like the idea of the compensator ring though. It seems quite effective in the Piaggio CVT cover and I don't see the shaft wearing that way like I've seen in Minarelli clones using the bearing support with just a close fit of the bearing and shaft. If anyone knows where to get those rings, please share. www.ottopuntouno.net/en/bullone-lungo-per-torsarm-ruota-12-per-carter-81-fireblade-minarelli-malossi-c-one-minarelliAny opinion on wall thickness of tubing? I'd like to go with 3/8" or maybe 7/16" OD at most to keep it kinda slim and maybe more aesthetically appealing. It would be nice to be light... well, not super heavy... but I don't want to make it weak either. I don't really know what this thing has to deal with. I'm going between .083", 0.95" and 0.12" wall thickness. I looked at some deflection calculator that one site recommended, but that mostly confused me more.
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Post by billwill on Feb 22, 2024 11:26:53 GMT -5
Obtaining a premade axle nut for it will likely be easier today than back in the Snoopy build days.. It's about $50 from 8.1 shipped. I think it has one of those tension ring things like Piaggio uses to keep the primary drive shaft snug in the cover bearing. Piaggio calls it a compensator ring, but googling that brings up pool supplies. I could mess up and still have material left for less $, plus make the nut to dimensions that work for whatever I do. I do like the idea of the compensator ring though. It seems quite effective in the Piaggio CVT cover and I don't see the shaft wearing that way like I've seen in Minarelli clones using the bearing support with just a close fit of the bearing and shaft. If anyone knows where to get those rings, please share. www.ottopuntouno.net/en/bullone-lungo-per-torsarm-ruota-12-per-carter-81-fireblade-minarelli-malossi-c-one-minarelliAny opinion on wall thickness of tubing? I'd like to go with 3/8" or maybe 7/16" OD at most to keep it kinda slim and maybe more aesthetically appealing. It would be nice to be light... well, not super heavy... but I don't want to make it weak either. I don't really know what this thing has to deal with. I'm going between .083", 0.95" and 0.12" wall thickness. I looked at some deflection calculator that one site recommended, but that mostly confused me more. I picked this up for my prebug when I was working on making the torsen arm fit with my Aerox wheels. I got it on black friday special for like $30-35 shipped. If you'd want to try it out and see for mocking something up before buying I could ship to you for cheap since I'm just on the other side of the bay bridge. But, I'd want it back eventually so maybe you just want to buy it :-D
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 22, 2024 15:56:27 GMT -5
I picked this up for my prebug when I was working on making the torsen arm fit with my Aerox wheels. I got it on black friday special for like $30-35 shipped. If you'd want to try it out and see for mocking something up before buying I could ship to you for cheap since I'm just on the other side of the bay bridge. But, I'd want it back eventually so maybe you just want to buy it :-D I think I'll be OK, but thank you for the offer.
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Post by 190mech on Feb 22, 2024 19:52:49 GMT -5
I'd use 3/4 minimum .058 or .065, anything under 1/2 will flex a good bit unless it is braced a bunch, then it will be heavier than the bigger tubing.. ![(2cents)](//storage.proboards.com/2855264/images/dhWVBYYMgydFRVbqAQRs.gif)
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 22, 2024 20:07:30 GMT -5
I'd use 3/4 minimum .058 or .065, anything under 1/2 will flex a good bit unless it is braced a bunch, then it will be heavier than the bigger tubing.. ![(2cents)](//storage.proboards.com/2855264/images/dhWVBYYMgydFRVbqAQRs.gif) Damn. I may have to be dumb and go with smaller OD and thicker just for appearance. I think I'd rather have something more attractive to me even if it has to be heavier. I know. I know. No offense meant because I know you used large tubing on Snoopy, but it looks fine there on a frame like that with tubes everywhere. I think it will look way out of place on T2. You know, since T2 is so streamlined and attractive. 😆
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Post by 190mech on Feb 23, 2024 4:26:47 GMT -5
![](https://i.postimg.cc/J4HCkLRq/P1030459.jpg) This is the only pic I could find during the build that showed it..
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 23, 2024 7:02:01 GMT -5
It looks good on there. Thanks for the pic.
Structurally, do you think there's much benefit from extending the tubes beyond the bearing? I was thinking about a round bearing holder and just running the legs from that to mounts without going past the bearing. It would have some vertical sections joining the two legs as well. Triangulation would be cool, but I imagine it's kinda tough to notch tubing properly for all of the angles... especially without a jig or something for notching so pretty much straight support legs make more sense to me. It would be nice to bend the tubing around the round bearing section too but I don't think that's happening for me and taking it to a bender goes back to being more sensible to just buy one. Not something I'm really worried about.
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Post by 190mech on Feb 23, 2024 19:14:46 GMT -5
Square tubing is way easier to work with as no fishmouth cuts have to be made to join them cleanly. I think the tubes could stop at the start of the bearing bracket if done properly.. It is always easier to fab first from cardboard to get an idea of how it will work and look before cutting metal!
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Post by 90GTVert on Mar 8, 2024 16:03:28 GMT -5
For the axle nut/shaft into a bearing in a support, I guess that should be basically a snug slip fit? I watched someone install a torsen on YouTube and that's what it looked like. Basically a bump into place. I was looking up interference fits for bearings and thinking it should be an interference fit, but I don't think you'd wanna hammer the torsen on. Suddenly those compensator rings sound even better, but I still don't know where to get such a thing. I suppose if it becomes an issue over time like my Minarelli CVT cover/shaft fit that would rattle eventually, I could treat it the same. I started making aluminum bushings to go into the bearing so the bushing would wear and not the shaft. Creates another wear item though, and I'm not sure how that would deal with the stress in this case.
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