|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 13, 2016 7:11:59 GMT -5
I love this thread! I have been shopping and researching everything I can for my Honda TAO1E engine...similar to an AF18E, or maybe a Lead NH/SH50. Bore and stroke = 39.99/39.3.
My project will not be raced, I don't think. At least not in normal terms. Road racing 2-strokes requires you to ALWAYS have power "on the pipe", meaning you must keep rpm's in a power mode...which is very much exhaust port and pipe tuning and carb flow dependant.
If you seek more low and mid-range power, as I do...you find a pipe that is good in that range, knowing that you will likely sacrifice top end. For every notch in the top end belt, there are also things to give up. Idling...never had a high end 2-stroke that would, unless you don't mind idling above 2500 rpm. OK for racing..in fact great!
If you want to wheelie your scoot like a crazed kid? Go for the drag pipe, stock gearing and lots of fuel exchange. Yes, drag pipes are very low/midrange flow oriented. In fact, I saw a super fast 125 with a pipe than ran straight out the right. The Stage 6 Pro Replica or similar can provide great low and mid-range grunt, then tapers off at higher rpm's. In my book, that is text book street shit-n-git! You must understand the flow dynamics, or understand others setups and wish for the best.
The hard part for us performance seekers, In my mind, is to find a balance of all engine related bits.
I was lucky enough at a young age to work with a 2-stroke guru in Northern California. Rick Schell. Rick was/is a tuning master. He was good enough to have Yamaha of Japan have him do testing and product feedback. Guess what? He never failed to show their drawbacks. (I think he was also a Daytona 200 winner, on the beach) Later in life, Rick became the brain/tuner behind the 250 GP Championship effort of Roland Sands, for many AMA years, including the US Championship in '09.
Rick was, in my past, the best 2-stroke expansion chamber designer of the modern era...period. Yes, we blew up shit! When race day came, we took my lack of experience and combined it with tuneable power, gearing and a few hard words...and kicked some ass. I had a 4th place finish on a tired TA125 Yamaha, against all other 125 water pumpers...35 bikes! Ricks pipes were pure mid-to-top end power! Can you say center-bleed? He gave me a set of pipes that blew the seals out at 12,500 rpm...35+ hp in 1979.
I too, am seeking the other end.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 13, 2016 4:02:09 GMT -5
Jr, I'm with ERXESHM with the gears. Straight cut gearing in simple and should be lees power draw. I experimented years ago with both straight cut, undercut and helical. Honestly, never had an issue on my Thumper GP bike with straight cut gearing...though rich people were modifying everything for a chance at speed. My bottom end never once had a failure.
The rest? It's just time and money and fun. You cannot make the wrong decision. Abuse it and it will return you the fun...or it breaks...or not. Then and only then do you need a cage.
Or not.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 13, 2016 3:21:07 GMT -5
Hey All! Just picked up this old thread... Since I began looking into the million possible upgrades for my little Honda Gyro Up/TAO1E, I too ran into this whole question. Since here in Thailand, there are many crazies about newer scooter performance and much R&D happening with all 4 Japanese builders, who are also here. After some consultation, I have found a few notable things. The older, lesser powered scooters have no need for good electrical generation. Simple lighting, horn, signals. Biggest draw would be the CDI, but that is fairly constant, and then the headlight. If you notice, most will dim as you throttle down. I saw 90GTVert's test data and such from a while back. It verifies what I have seen on my scoot, in term of stock output. Looks OK, but not great. The issue with these old scoots is that to save money in production, the manufacturers have installed a lighting circuit directly into the stator. Very common, but that means that is is a "Half-Wave" electrical generator. Cheaper to buy & build Rectifier/Regulators. Simple. Nowadays the scoots are all fuel injected here. FI requires much more e-juice than a half wave can consistently put up. The locals have put many HID lights on their scoots, only to find a huge drain or electrical cut-out. Bottom line is that Fuel injected scooters are all full wave stators and associated rectifier/regulators. If you test one, you should find the story...I tested my 2014 Yamaha Mio 125 MX, which has FI and it puts up a full 14.2 at idle! (as high as 15.4 at WOT) My Gyro is old, an '84. At idle (1800 rpm) it puts up only 11.8V, where it should be 12V or more. The answers to all the above questions? There is a modification to the stator that can be done on any stator. It isn't too hard and costs pennies. Basically, it is eliminating the lighting circuit and adding in a full wave Rectifier/Regulator. This allows you to gain full access to available power. This also means you may have to re-route your lights from the battery, where it should be. Big bikes are usually like that. The second question is why I chimed in here...Is there an easier parts swap? I think the Rectifier/Regulator swap should be simple. I will research that one soon. Easy to mount, cheap to buy. I have seen 4 and 5 wire R/R's, the difference being that the 5 wire has an extra charging wire. I do not know why yet, but not a big issue. The big issue is the question asked here by a few of you above: What stators from a newer, full wave scooter can be used? The research here, if nobody has done it would be looking at shaft diameters and mounting hole spacing. One would need both stator and rotor as a matched set, or deal with clearance issues. It also must fit inside the cover. I have an article regarding the stator modification, if there is interest still. I am looking at both FI and better CDI plus using an ECU that can trigger both the injector and the ignition. The electrical power consumers include fuel pump, injectors, ignition coils, relays, O2 sensors, etc. Adding together, the EFI power consumption would be in 40W to 80W range. As stated above and in 90GTVert's data, old scoots just barely make 40W. You can opt for all LED lighting reduce consumption quite a bit. If not needing FI system requirements or HID lighting, that's a better fix. You may be able to find a 12 or 18 pole stator. I saw a few on US sites and the UK...but at $140 to 400 plus? Much to research... Just found this on eBay. A good place to start.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 5, 2016 23:18:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 5, 2016 5:15:53 GMT -5
I think the whole point is that, yes...anyone can tune a pod or no filter or no reed valves or ay other combination to actually function and function well. If the desire is upmost horsepower at the top end, no problems. If the desire is for more performance any where else in the power band, then the story is quite different.
Given the F1 data, I am looking at intake tract air speed and pressure waves to see if REAL gains can be made. I am not so sure...but finding out might be! I don't care much about top end power...I am not racing this little thing, but I do want it to shit-n-git from the line! I do not have to even register a 50cc or under, but altering it with cylinder bores and such, while fun, creates more issues.
If I could get a water cooled 49cc kit, I would be super happy, because I know that a Minarelli vertical engine can produce 8 hp or more easy...in low to mid range. I want to wheelie my Gyro off of speed bumps, but not end up in the bone ward.
Please don't be negative about the data...it is real. Understand the intent. You can install anything that makes you feel good, or makes power down low. If you want peak HP? Another story.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 3, 2016 7:28:25 GMT -5
Hi StepTuner,
I too got to se Rahal in FB and Prototypes...at Sears and Laguna Seca. Baad ass! If you like the Datsun's...you might enjoy my Nissan project. A Y10/N14 based chassis that is in pickup truck form here in Thailand. Mine will have AWD and be around 200 to 225hp. I am calling it a Nissan NV VZ-R.
Can Pm you details and ideas if you'e a Nissan nut.
Jay
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 1, 2016 7:42:39 GMT -5
My DSR was an Omni-Fab Cheetah SR-1. When I bought it, had Yamaha 1000 with carbs and about 175 hp. When I sold it, it had a Suzuki 1000 with FI and dyno power at 202 hp. Of course, I had crashed it and therefore had forced upgrades. Guessing it peaked near 155 mph, but I know it pulled 4.1 G's in the right places. Paint was by me...crash damage was by me...broken engine from over revving later that day? By me.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 1, 2016 4:19:42 GMT -5
Hi Tsimi, If you need some specific information that can help, please let me know. I am no expert on any of this, but have done much research on the TA01/02E engines and AF16/18E's. I am more struggling with pipes and clearances, since scooters versus trikes have different needs. For example: I do not want a pipe that has a forward muffler, but need a straight though-out the back pipe. Many little things...
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Apr 1, 2016 3:11:42 GMT -5
Yes! Those are all Honda Gyro X models. More square and boxier, but the same TA01/TA02 engine as the Canopy or Up as I have. The big difference is that the X and Canopy pivot the rider and rear platform/roof, whatever. The Up models rear deck was stationary above the engine as in my picture. The rider and front end only pivot. I chose the UP for that reason. I can haul "stuff", like parts, food, dogs or girlfriend without dumping anything...plus it it easier to get the rear, twin shock suspension to work better. It is harsh, with small hard tires and about 1.5" of travel. My new setup will be better. My project will be slow, as we are developing a new business here, but I will keep a log of things where it fits in this forum. New builds....is there a slow build/dinosaur speed project spot?
If you find anyone interested... here is some information that other forums didn't quite understand regarding the Gyro's: This 2 stroke line with the basic 49 cc engine began in '81...'82 model year. All were variations of the TB50 Honda line: * Gyro X * Gyro Up * Gyro Up Canopy The above had either TA01-E or TA02E engines, which shared near everything with an SK50 (and others) with AF16/18E engines. (Dio, Elite, Kymco, GY6, etc.) Honda made Gyro Canopy models are still being produced for Japan only, with a four stoke 49cc engine, the TC50-BB02E, as of 2008.
Other or later models included ones for North America: These scoots did NOT have the same engine. They came with a TB08E or TB090E. *Stream * Joy * Just * Road Fox
The difference as I have found is major. The TA01/02 & AF16/18 and maybe later...are Honda upright cylinders in a front mounted location near/above the swing arm. The other, NOrth American models listed, though still sharing most parts...have a rear, angled cylinder, with the plug exposed out the back, in effect, reversed. Other forums somehow, did not make this distinction and consider them all Gyro's, which they clearly are not. The other difference, though kind of minor, really, is the the original Gyro transmission is NOT like a current CVT, but rather has a 2 speed, stepped, lo-hi actuation. That matters little as the CVT variators, clutches and drive belts from all newer units mount directly. In Thailand, most have been changed already.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 30, 2016 1:33:35 GMT -5
Thanks Ryan, I will measure the shafts and look at the splines...the Gyro is an '84, but possible match. I could freshen up everything stock, but that just isn't sexy enough. I have a set of tires and wheels coming that are 10"...stock are 3.5 x 6. The 10" wheels may clear a 220mm rotors and calipers, but if the carriers will mount the axles/splines I can handle the rest. Here in SouthEast Asia, there are many parts available for newer scooters and such. Just have to find the right hardware to make my job easier.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 29, 2016 7:17:36 GMT -5
Hey all...I am trying to find information regarding mid '80s Dio, or actually any Honda that formerly had drum brakes and went to disks...either Honda OEM or aftermarket. I have seen Dio Sk50's with disk brakes on both ends, but not sure what year/model. Secondly, I wonder how many similarities between Ruckus brake hardware and Dio? Part number are different, but sizes look close. I have an '84 Honda Gyro Up that has two very horrible drums in back. (It's a 3-wheeler) The Dio has the same drum on early models, and it is the same as the Gyro Up, X, and Canopy. I am just trying to have fun upgrading everything, but really do not need much stopping power. I used Fred Flintstone brakes the first few days I Owned this, with no real problems...but dual disk rear wheels would be nice! Specifically: - Shaft and spline dimension
- Axle diameter
- Rotor mounting
I am nearly sure I will have to fab up a proper caliper bracket...but who knows?
The Gyro housing is really just a 2 wheel version of a Dio/Elite rear...in North America, that would be SA50, SE50 or maybe SR50. The engine top end and guts are purely the same as the AF18E engine. The suspensions are different but the drums brakes are all the same parts....so trying to cross reference any later disk applications that are workable.
If not, I will find mountain bike stuff and make it work myself. Somehow, someway.
Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 28, 2016 20:55:22 GMT -5
You said it Spaz! I am nearly 60, and still ride hard enough to surprise many youngsters. I too am a pit junkie, and track days. I am hoping to get the TRX out there when I get it back together. In Buriram Thailand, Chang International raceway just hosted the second round of World Super Bike...nice!
Thai CTH TV channel carries F1, WSB, Moto GP and many more live! We often are up at 3 am to watch a good event.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 26, 2016 19:02:40 GMT -5
Girls late for school...
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 26, 2016 18:35:12 GMT -5
Sorry, this computer has more recent stuff. My racing two-stroke days ended in '84. I started on a production RD125B, then to it's racing bro the TA125. (Mine actually had a 6 speed) After that I competed in 250GP in AMA on a Yamaha TZ250D and a TZ250J. Once, I got to ride a TZ750, when a friend crashed and broke his collarbone. Scary! My favourite bike to race however, was my thumper. Honda NSR250 Frame, with a XR600 4T single at 13:1 compression. Loud!
Somewhere I have a flash drive with pictures of the NSR-XR600. TZ pictures are all in a box in the US in old slide form. Never did get them digital. I will try to find some. My TZ racing was money limited, so I would usually qualify 15 to 20th, out of 35 or so...and finish 10 to 12th...an occasional OMG day in the top 10. Was in third once, having a great day but crashed in turn 4 at Sears Point on the last lap after overcooking the entry...forgot to downshift coming down the hill off of 3A.
Yes, there are some fantastic scoots here. One local kid has a drag race looking Honda Zoomer...extended frame, fat road race style tires, CBR600RR fairing.
Thai food? I eat Thai food every day! Pad Thai is good everywhere, but there is so much more...We eat Southern Thai food a lot, which is spicier than the north and eastern food. Much seafood here. I like most of it.
|
|
|
Post by ThaiGyro on Mar 25, 2016 7:23:27 GMT -5
Thanks Vert. I will be trying to pick the brains of anyone who has done mods to the Honda SK50 Dio. Though the cases are very different, as the Dio has 2 legs and the Gyro has 3, but it appears that they share everything else. So top end, ignitions, carb upgrades, pipes...I am trying to get good feedback on variator changes and clutches.
Everything should be easy and fun...no mods to this Gyro yet, except that someone decided that it needed no air filter, just a box. Easy to start, warms up slow, runs horrible sometimes, screams then nearly seizes...haha! Thailand is humid, then not...but always hot. It needs better air ducting and a fan to keep it cooled.
|
|