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Post by greginisn on Sept 18, 2017 22:47:40 GMT -5
I don't agree with the hotter spark the hotter the combustion theory. If you were getting more power out of each ignition cycle you could ease off the throttle a bit. If you run any engine hard you may cause excessive heating. Never mind how efficient your ignition system is. No one has ever striven for a crappy inefficient ignition system, just my  . I'm intrigued with the COP experiment and being a long time Ford owner I have more trust in Ford for reliability than the PRC. And I like the little bracket idea. Greg |
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Post by golfmech on Sept 27, 2017 10:57:03 GMT -5
Most people here seem to forget spark plugs usually have a resistor built in to control temperature so I wouldn't worry about burning up a motor with this MOD. My only real concern would be these Ford coils are made to run on Dc current and most of our scoots run on Ac I'm not sure if it even makes a difference but it's something to consider
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Post by jackrides on Sept 27, 2017 11:10:02 GMT -5
1Muskrat, my fox Mustang, asked for my help this morning. It seems he got some plastic stuck in his teeth during his morning breakfast of camaro.
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Post by jackrides on Sept 27, 2017 11:19:44 GMT -5
Anyway, wouldn't more powerful spark potential enable a larger spark gap enabling a quicker, more complete burn?
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Post by 90GTVert on Sept 27, 2017 11:27:51 GMT -5
Anyway, wouldn't more powerful spark potential enable a larger spark gap enabling a quicker, more complete burn? It could. The thing I wonder about is, are the sparks any more capable with these mods. I have tested my MSD coil with an adjustable gap tester. Turns out the stock TaoTao coil can jump a gap as large as any performance coil I had on hand. I still use the MSD coil on my 2T, and it runs fine, but I think all I may get from it is a coil that is a little better made. |
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Post by lostforawhile on Sept 27, 2017 19:04:13 GMT -5
Most people here seem to forget spark plugs usually have a resistor built in to control temperature so I wouldn't worry about burning up a motor with this MOD. My only real concern would be these Ford coils are made to run on Dc current and most of our scoots run on Ac I'm not sure if it even makes a difference but it's something to consider the resistor has nothing to do with controlling temp, it's to suppress rfi interference, I'm not even sure if the NGK plugs for these are even resistor, non resistor are best for this application, as well as a solid core plug wire, no computers, no interference. the output of the CDI box is Dc to the coil regardless of whether the CDI is AC or DC, the capacitor charges to a high voltage DC, then when allowed to discharge into the coil, fires the plug, these are the opposite of a traditional ignition coil, were cutting the DC voltage causes a field collapse and the induction of high voltage in the secondary |
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Post by lostforawhile on Sept 27, 2017 19:12:26 GMT -5
I don't agree with the hotter spark the hotter the combustion theory. If you were getting more power out of each ignition cycle you could ease off the throttle a bit. If you run any engine hard you may cause excessive heating. Never mind how efficient your ignition system is. No one has ever striven for a crappy inefficient ignition system, just my . I'm intrigued with the COP experiment and being a long time Ford owner I have more trust in Ford for reliability than the PRC. And I like the little bracket idea. Greg |
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Post by lostforawhile on Sept 27, 2017 19:15:16 GMT -5
you are not going to hurt your engine with a good hot spark, the cylinder temp is set by mixture and timing, all a really good spark does, is possibly fire more of the mixture, resulting in a more efficient engine. You may even be able to go to a slightly richer mixture and get a little more power, as the hot spark is less likely to foul
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Post by greginisn on Sept 27, 2017 22:36:41 GMT -5
AC vs DC coils.
The coil doesn't give a hoot if it is asked to create spark plug firing voltage because of a pulse from a collapsing DC voltage or a voltage pulse generated from AC. In theory you could create a sparking voltage both when applying or removing DC voltage from a coil, applying an AC voltage would be of dubious value. And remember we're talking CDI ignition, Capacitive Discharge, so the little module charges a capacitor with rectified AC to a level somewhat higher than 12 VDC and that charged capacitor releases a pulse to the coil when triggered by pickup coil. No matter who made the coil or where it came from you grab the coils spark plug wire and pulse that coil and it will bite you. It's their job.
Greg
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Post by lostforawhile on Sept 27, 2017 22:44:40 GMT -5
AC vs DC coils. The coil doesn't give a hoot if it is asked to create spark plug firing voltage because of a pulse from a collapsing DC voltage or a voltage pulse generated from AC. In theory you could create a sparking voltage both when applying or removing DC voltage from a coil, applying an AC voltage would be of dubious value. And remember we're talking CDI ignition, Capacitive Discharge, so the little module charges a capacitor with rectified AC to a level somewhat higher than 12 VDC and that charged capacitor releases a pulse to the coil when triggered by pickup coil. No matter who made the coil or where it came from you grab the coils spark plug wire and pulse that coil and it will bite you. It's their job. Greg I think the point of this thread is an easy and cheap mod, that is most likely far better quality then any china made coil and wire. |
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Post by greginisn on Sept 28, 2017 1:39:59 GMT -5
Since some mentioned resistor plugs something else to remember is that ignition wire also comes in a resistor variety. It would probably be better for the spark pulse to not have to pass thru a resistive cable and a resistive plug. I would opt for the resistor plug since the resistive cable can have internal fractures in the conductor.
Greg
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Post by sgtsimbo on Oct 28, 2017 4:46:04 GMT -5
Allow me to toss my 2 cents into the thread here. Sorry to mini hijack your thread. Great Mod BtW.
I have spent about a week and a half fighting a hard start/no start issue, also was getting a sudden loss of power then immediately pick back up with a throttle rev or two while at WoT, also an occasionnal idle down to off when coming to a stop from WoT. So like everyone else here I poured over countless threads, trying every fix I could to get my scoot right again.
So a few days ago I was in rush mode cause it was a No Start day and had to be to work within mere minutes. So I pulled a freshly cleaned plug to install and try again and noticed something as I got it in but accidently hit switch with hand still pushing cap onto plug. Wiggle one way....crank...other....nothing. yet every single test on the head showed spark. So I looked into how our plugs are designed...then took it apart that night and seen how cheap our part manufactures actually are. We get a quarter inch thick cable with a mere 1 to 2 mm of copper within. Yea....even the so called Orange performance coil. Sad but true.
Well, that same evening I brought home a chunk of wire that was a hair thicker than our wires, but packed to the max with copper. I mean now about 2mm of rubber around all the copper. I got out my Dremmel and shaved down a section for my Tach wire wrap to ensure a better pulse. I snatched the Orange plug apart and reworked it onto my new wire. Used a little lock tight glue for edge areas of boot, 2 prong plug, and end sheaths for both sides (edge to easily cut if something went wrong). Then once assembled I even used a little electric tape on edges with a little glue on edge of it as well just to be 1. Safe, and 2. Meticulous in my project idea.
Now its all assembled and I gave it a good 2 hour dry time. Once dry, I did the dreaded install and pray this off the wall mod did not bring the heavens crashing down to earth. Once installed (Yes if you do this, be ready to fight the cooper on wraps around frame or bend to plug) I did a re wire of the green and black slide tabs for top of coil so they were cleaned up and seated tight again as well. Well I hit crank, and scooter did something I NEVER seen. It started within millaseconds. I mean like crank..cra....START! SO. I thought lucky. 5 starts. Same thing. The thing was litterally purring like a kitten now. It sounds freaking GREAT!
Ok....test ride. Acceleration -
Noticeably better. Mid range - no hesitate. Top end - about 3mph higher and also was Taching at 9200+ RPMs (from a top end tach of 8400+). So now, because the Mod has been so great, I am in the process of re working Trans/gearing to get Tach/ Top end back under control. 2vdays now I had to hold back throttle to and from work to be safe on engine now with all the extra power it had. Espically on Downhills. Only real change in heat came for the higher RPM point. No difference to be of concern for the regular operation range.
So, my point. I have 3 different coils (1 is a orange performance coil). All showed same kind of symptoms in use. An accidental bump showed a flaw. A brave upgrade resulted in a cheap and/or free performance mod that everyone should try. I work at an auto salvage yard. Thick wire everywhere. Stop in at a local yard with a good set of cutters. 14-16 inches. Most yards will let you get it for free. Cut from center out to ensure clean copper. Go home and mod what ever coil you have currently. You will then see you just fed your ride a plate of Steroids with Red Bull to drink, and a desert of No-Doze to keep on rolling. Just be ready, you too will be back in the transmission case again. Perhaps I am wrong, will not work for everyone. Judging by these parts we get offered to buy....I dont think so.
Good luck. Keep on Scooting peeps.
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Post by lostforawhile on Oct 28, 2017 16:58:13 GMT -5
I actually run the NCY COP on my 150. It did help with throttle response by about 15 percent. Other than that it burns more gas and granted a smidgen more power but no top speed. The bracket it came with is worthless. I tried this on my 49cc and it didn't do shit to it. That is why NCY doesn't make one for 49cc. It's a complete waste of money and some because there isn't enough power to make power lol. this is probably as cheap to get a junkyard one, as a new coil, there's a reason that bikes are going to COP now, no ignition wire to fail, why knock something that works and is probably a lot better quality then an ebay no name coil and wire , it's not even about power in this case, but about reliability. |
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Post by lostforawhile on Oct 28, 2017 17:03:02 GMT -5
Hope you don't mind me asking but the COP mod sounds intriguing. I've got a few COP's floating around from a Peugeot V6 engine. These are 2 pin coils but they are supplied with a constant 12v and are earth switched by the Engine ECU. Can someone let me know if the Ford coil works the same way or vice versa?? I'd also like to understand how a typical scoot coil is energised and operated if possible? I'm trying for every conceivable budget mod on my stock minarelli 50. Any help would be appreciated! if they are supplied with constant 12 volts, they are an inductive type coil, and may not work well, our coils are really not a "coil" but a high voltage step up transformer. the CDI takes the voltage from the charge winding on the stator, and steps it up, and charges the capacitor with it, then it's discharged and stepped up by the coil, In a regular inductive type coil, the coil has voltage all the time, but the ground is interrupted, this causes a field collapse, which induces high voltage in the secondary |
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Post by lostforawhile on Oct 28, 2017 17:15:30 GMT -5
there seems to be some confusion here, there are two types of coils, one is the traditional inductive coil, and one is a transformer type coil, both work in completely different ways, you can use a traditional inductive coil with a CDI box, you just have to connect one lead to ground and connect the positive to the box output, but that type of coil is not going to be the most efficient use of a CDI, you really need to get a transformer type coil to use with a CDI for the best spark, the other issue is the issue of dwell with an inductive coil. Most inductive coils drop off voltage rapidly as RPM increases, with a transformer type coil, there effectively is no dwell issue, as the coil doesn't have to charge, this is the main advantage of a COP, they work very well at high rpms, which makes them idea for scooters and motorcycles
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. I'm intrigued with the COP experiment and being a long time Ford owner I have more trust in Ford for reliability than the PRC. And I like the little bracket idea.
