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Post by gy6luver on Oct 16, 2011 0:40:41 GMT -5
electrical stuff is challenging enough even when you are actually touching the bike. Something like this is pretty much impossible over the net. thanks .... i think WOW :swear: |
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 16, 2011 7:55:56 GMT -5
I've only messed with the 2 wire stuff, where you have a ground and signal wire out of the fuel level sender. That's pretty simple and you just need the signal wire to hook to the gauge cluster, the sender can get it's ground from the common ground in the harness and the gauge will get it's ground from the ground wire that distributes power through the cluster via the printed circuit. I think some fuel level senders (on automobiles anyhow) would use a power source with a regulated voltage, different than the 12V-ish running through the rest of the scoot, to supply the sender. I dunno if that's the case here or not.
From your pinout, it appears your only option is to connect the yellow/white and blue/white at the cluster harness from the sender to the red in black on the new cluster in both possible combinations. If that doesn't work, I'm not really sure how you would make it work?
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 16, 2011 9:47:47 GMT -5
I've only messed with the 2 wire stuff, where you have a ground and signal wire out of the fuel level sender. That's pretty simple and you just need the signal wire to hook to the gauge cluster, the sender can get it's ground from the common ground in the harness and the gauge will get it's ground from the ground wire that distributes power through the cluster via the printed circuit. I think some fuel level senders (on automobiles anyhow) would use a power source with a regulated voltage, different than the 12V-ish running through the rest of the scoot, to supply the sender. I dunno if that's the case here or not. From your pinout, it appears your only option is to connect the yellow/white and blue/white at the cluster harness from the sender to the red in black on the new cluster in both possible combinations. If that doesn't work, I'm not really sure how you would make it work? only issue is the black is being used, its what keeps the lcd nice and crsip and bright with the letters red wire is all thats left and that does nothing i get what your saying about connecting to a frame ground but that makes a little less sense, are you saying hook yellow and white and blue and white TOGETHER on the red and running what to ground, like i said there are three wires coming out of the sending unit but only TWO make it up to the cluster, so my guess is the green wire is terminated along the frame somewhere, there is a green wire in the analog cluster however that does not affect the fuel gauge if i unhook it |
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 16, 2011 10:19:40 GMT -5
I'm not saying attach them together, I was saying attach them to the 2 wires that your image says are "UNUSED" on the new cluster. The green off the sender is probably a ground and it just comes off of the harness ground I would imagine. I have a feeling the yellow/white and blue/white are proprietary to the fuel gauge and sender and both will be needed to make the sender you have work with anything. Maybe some scoots with a digital cluster had the 2 wire sender? Maybe something else isn't right? I dunno, I wish the manufacturers would use some standard wiring colors across the board, but that's too much to ask for.  |
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Post by bigkahuna427 on Oct 16, 2011 16:32:25 GMT -5
If I was there I could probably figure this out..... On the tach if you have a standard "CDI" ignition then finding the signal wire is easy. Unplug the spark plug then with a 12v test light one of the two wires at the coil should blink when cranking the engine and one should be more or less steady (with the coil connected). The blinking wire is your signal wire to the tach.
The fuel gauge is simply a volt meter. In an automotive application there would be an IVR somewhere. An IVR "Internal Voltage Regulator" regulates voltage to the gauges so they can be accurate. I would bet there is an IVR in the gauge itself. If so and with the original gauge installed unplug the sending unit at the tank. With a 12v test light see if one of the wires blinks with the key on. This is the wire the gauge is measuring voltage on. If you ground it the gauge should sweep from one end to the other. IDK if this helps or not. I would have tried to figure out what wire was what before removing the old gauges.
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 16, 2011 21:11:56 GMT -5
I learned something today, actually a few things 1. chinese suck when they take no pride or accountability for the things they make 2. friends are not really friends, they only help when they WANT to and in the end your on your own! 3. working on scooters can test your sanity to the limit 4. the people on scooter forums are NOT GOD ,they do NOT know everything (truth be told their knowledge is quite limited when it comes down to crunch time) 5. A scooter is fun to drive with a digital speedometer at night down a country road after a day of hard work 6. shop lights and spotlights are the second best thing to daylight when working on a scoot Alas so ends another day of work on big red, she is back together and sitting in the driveway after being taken for a rip roaring ride through the country. things accomplished today 1. inverter has been fused and tested and wired 2. oil catch can is in place and pcv valve is vented under seat vent 3. led tail light installed and tested 4. red blinkers installed and tested 5. new speedo cluster installed, wired, and tested including tach wire (sadly the fuel gauge did not get to join them and still will forever blink empty) 6. total destruction of analog cluster and remounting of fuel gauge on scooter (looks like crap, works awesome) 7. reassembly of all plastics and fairings 8. used first zip tie to hold scooter panel on and a couple sheetrock screws as chinese plastic broke a few mounts 9. fuel petcock installed and mounted and tested (however reserve tank leaked all over seat tub and will have to be redone tomorrow) alot got done today, and big red is getting closer to the trip once again, i only wish the fuel gauge issue could have been solved but as i said before limited knowledge here and on the web in general made that an impossibilty, i imagine in time i will learn to ignore the blinking fuel cursor on the digital dash or ill cover it up with electrical tape, or maybe a miracle will happen and ill get someone who knows what the F#$% happened and get a new sending unit or something, or who knows..... I hope tomorrow to get a hold of an impact wrench and change the gears and rollers, right now i had big red up to 64 mph (with about 8 grand on the tach) cruising along begging for a little more (this speedo is within 1\2 mph of realtime speed, very accurate!!!) Ill hopefully get alot done tomorrow and restart the trip clock soon! thanks everyone for what help has been offered, i dont expect everyone to know everything but i was i dont know forget it i guess im just bummed out about the gauge and the destruction of a perfectly good analog cluster .... Ok photos from today as usual www.dropbox.com/gallery/35382354/1/Closer?h=e98415 |
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 16, 2011 21:13:39 GMT -5
If I was there I could probably figure this out..... i doubt that very much, it didnt matter what wire you tired, or combination it wasnt going to happen, everything was tried, if you manage to get a digital gauge to work with a sending unit off an analog bike come back here and tell me how.... sorry its been a long day but you wouldnt have been able to do anything .... |
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Post by bigkahuna427 on Oct 17, 2011 6:41:02 GMT -5
I did not mean to offend you. I am a master auto tech.
Go find any wiring diagram for a three wire sending unit and gauge in a car. My guess is that at the sending unit one is ground one is power (with a test light this might be blinking) and the other is the voltage drop across the potentiometer which is what your gauge is measuring. If your gauge has an IVR than that needs to be powered and would be where the power is coming from on the one wire that has power at the sending unit. It does not matter if the gauge is digital or not. It is still a voltmeter basically that reads empty full and places between.... I digital fuel gauge would still have a potentiometer just like you have now in the tank. I know electrical stuff can be confusing if you have no experience with it. You should not be just trying to attach wires until it works. You may have damaged something already. Do you have a 12 volt test light or a DVOM?
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Post by bigkahuna427 on Oct 17, 2011 7:07:18 GMT -5
I also want to mention this. Many years ago when I was a teenager working at an auto dealership I had the good fortune of working right next to the the guy in the shop who was like an genius to all the other guys in the shop. I don't remember what I was trying to fix but was getting frustrated because it wasn't getting fixed and I had "tried everything". I asked him why does this not work? He said to me, "why does it work?" Then he said really think about that. If you know why it works then you will know why it doesn't. Once I started thinking in those terms things got much easier. So my question to you would be why does a fuel gauge work?
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 17, 2011 8:43:33 GMT -5
a fuel gauge from a sending unit in the tank, it works via three wires that come off a plug in the molex connecter, the wires are green, for ground, blue+white strip for signal, and yellow+ white stripe for + voltage. (key switch)
those wires are sent to the fuel gauge which measures resistance that varys depending on the position of the float in the tank, providing a readout
while i am slightly amused by your thoughts it comes down to tearing the bike apart for a chance that nothing will change, thats just not something i want to do, im going to call vento today and see what sending unit was on the phantom, maybe that will provide some leads
Its not that it cant work, i tried all combinations even using a V OHM meter
something i DID notice when wiring the old gauge up, the green ground at the tank doesnt apply at the gauge , the wire must be black when grounded at the gauge , just one thing that was fairly interesting ....
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 17, 2011 8:58:42 GMT -5
great according to virginia powersports (a vento dealer) vento is no longer in the USA, yaaaay!
:beatup:
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 17, 2011 9:07:05 GMT -5
They seem to enjoy having 2 ground wiring schemes on some of the 4Ts. Usually green and black. Vento USA went out of business in 2007. They used to be one of the only manufacturers I knew of that I could go order parts from directly and at good prices. |
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 17, 2011 9:11:26 GMT -5
They seem to enjoy having 2 ground wiring schemes on some of the 4Ts. Usually green and black. not that it made adifference, as none of those wires worked on the new speedo anyway, green was used already as was black all combos were tried so im guessing they are dead ends |
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 17, 2011 9:13:13 GMT -5
Looks like they used a 3 wire sender too. Attachments:
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Post by gy6luver on Oct 17, 2011 9:18:08 GMT -5
saw that image, i just called virginia and three florida dealerships, they are more clueless then the forums lol
this is bad all around,
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