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Post by jbjhillbilly on Feb 16, 2021 21:10:48 GMT -5
The Hawaiian cats here on the forum would be the ones to ask. Those guys are AF16/AF18 maniacs.
Scooterswapshop would be my goto for Honda Elite 50 and Dio stuff. They pretty much built the shop from it.
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Post by 808ministroke on Feb 16, 2021 22:34:08 GMT -5
Everybody over here it that runs those Mini stroke corsa set ups Usually run A PG Long or short depending on Power band, The one pipe I am constantly heard that is better than that pipe is a scorpion pipe from scooter alley here on oahu, It's rare to see chambered pipes run on the setups Could be because of the power band could be because of the availability Of decent chambered pipes for these models are few and in between Can't say 100% why those are used 99% of the time but there has to be a good reason.
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 17, 2021 11:11:43 GMT -5
I was talking with n4smotorwerx about a mini stroker corsa and he said the same thing about the PG short. I'm not sure how those PG pipes work though. Its not an expansion chamber like the Arrow its, something else?
How does it work?
Is the arrow any better or no?
The ScooterSwapShop listed the PG pipes as poor performers. I guess that's not true?
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Post by 190mech on Feb 17, 2021 19:54:33 GMT -5
I built a Honda(likely my last,dont care for tiny wheels) a while back; 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/24906/honda-af16-cause?page=1My take on them is performance parts are out there,lots are junk though..The PG "half wave" pipes will NEVER make the power of a well built expansion chamber!If you build it as any 2stroke should be,careful attention should be on port layout,squish,intake flow,ignition setup,carb selection and a good pipe,with proper gearing,it'll be a wild ride!!!Thinking out of the box like adapting a vertical Yamaha engine quality pipe(Yasuni C16)will make it waaay better... |
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 17, 2021 20:06:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure what I want really. The Arrow seems awesome but with so many Hawaiians sweaing by the PG pipes I don't know what to think anymore. I can buy two PG shorts for just 1 Arrow haha
What you said makes sense to me though. How could a single cone pipe make as much power as a proper expansion chamber? In my mind it just doesn't make sense. The world of Honda is so confusing. Same with carb sizing, dudes run a 28mm(!?) on a cast iron 80cc mini stroker and it runs great.
I can already feel the 10" tire pain. There aren't a lot of good 90/90-10 options out there.
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Post by jbjhillbilly on Feb 18, 2021 16:41:10 GMT -5
I think it depends on the build you’re doing. My understanding is the PG does well into the 12k rpm range, where the Arrow tops out about 10k.
Don’t count out Taida, Piarel, or Vastro either.
The reason I mentioned SSS is that they have a lot experience building motors for people and not just selling parts. Their customer service and Facebook customer support page are great.
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 18, 2021 17:05:38 GMT -5
I think it depends on the build you’re doing. My understanding is the PG does well into the 12k rpm range, where the Arrow tops out about 10k. Don’t count out Taida, Piarel, or Vastro either. The reason I mentioned SSS is that they have a lot experience building motors for people and not just selling parts. Their customer service and Facebook customer support page are geat After asking around there doesn't seem to be a concsnsus on pipes. I bought a PG short and ill run with it for now. I like that the PG is quiet and revs out further however I think 190mech is right. How a simple pipe like the PG makes power like an expansion I don't know. After asking around the Mini Stroker crank also seems useless for daily riders like me. From what it sounds like an OEM crank Corsa setup is pretty normal. In other news I got some new tools and supplies! I got a brand new Milwaukee FUEL impact driver and mid-torque impact gun, a full set of impact sockets from Tekton and a set of Tekton screwdrivers. I also ordered up replacement ZX decals, a new seat cover and a 200mm RPM caliper set from China. I ordered up my tires, Michelin S1 3"x10" and my super-secret plastic restoring sauce. |
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Post by repherence2 on Feb 18, 2021 18:57:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure what I want really. The Arrow seems awesome but with so many Hawaiians sweaing by the PG pipes I don't know what to think anymore. I can buy two PG shorts for just 1 Arrow haha What you said makes sense to me though. How could a single cone pipe make as much power as a proper expansion chamber? In my mind it just doesn't make sense. The world of Honda is so confusing. Same with carb sizing, dudes run a 28mm(!?) on a cast iron 80cc mini stroker and it runs great. I can already feel the 10" tire pain. There aren't a lot of good 90/90-10 options out there. People run the Phongeer (PG) pipes here because they are available. The guy from Phongeer comes and visits hawaii and is known by several moped shop owners. PG's and YMS v8 pipes are the most reasonably priced "modified" pipes aside from the stock looking pipe with the "DIO" heat shield. Arrow pipes were always rare and expensive. Some people also ran SEF pipes. I have seen 2 types, SEF Magic (looks like a PG short/long) and another SEF 1/2 wave canister. There was a time when cops were cracking down on modified mopeds. People would avoid chamber pipes here because it was an easy target for cops to stop you for a modified moped. Thus, V8's and PG's entered the scene. Scooter Alley imports the Scorpions and Sparrows from the Philippines. There are 3 different sizes of Scorpions. They seem to be a copy of the SEF 1/2 wave canister pipe. The Sparrow is a copy of the Arrow. I guess the Sparrow came about after Arrow stopped making the pipe. But then Scooter Swap Shop convinced Arrow to produce the pipe again. 28mm OKO. Everyone runs the 28 because pretty much all the OKOs cost the same, so everyone goes with the "bigger is better" idea. When the large moped cruises go on a run, everyone is gunning it at full throttle when they are racing. I think we use 28's specifically for that. I run a 28 on my 54mm Taida minarelli. Honda guys run 28's on 70cc bores too. Stock stroke, full stroker, ministroker: One shop stands by the full stroker setup. One shop stands by the ministroker Corsa. It all depends on preference. I've seen pictures of a shop rewelding a bunch of PG longs. My assumption is that it was in-proccess pics of the shop modifying the PG long to turn it into a "flip cone". I dont know if he learned it straight from the PG guy because I've seen lots of pics of shop owner with the guy from Phongeer. So many different set-ups are run here on oahu. Got the Corsa guys, Charmo guys, fabrizzi guys, MHR rep guys, Taida guys, etc in the Honda scene. It's all fun and games until the Jog Union and the Motosource guys show up with the minarelli's and piaggio's. Running Big Evo's, stage6 90cc race bores, or the 2fast4race stuff. ...then it's Game Over for the Hondas on Oahu. |
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Post by aeroxbud on Feb 18, 2021 19:39:51 GMT -5
That's very interesting information. I did wonder why so many of the guys there run half wave pipes. That answers that question.
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 19, 2021 11:17:13 GMT -5
It figures that it's an availability problem. As I understand it there's only two or three true expansion chambers available for Honda motors. The Arrow which at one point was discontinued, JISO pipes and RRGS pipes. All of those are hard to get and very expensive compared to single cone pipes like the PGs.
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 20, 2021 0:23:36 GMT -5
I put in a big order of parts today gentlemen!
I have to slow down on this project and get the Roughhouse running right too! I still have an unidentified air leak in that motor. This new Dio has me feeling reinvigorated for scoots.
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Post by aeroxbud on Feb 20, 2021 9:14:52 GMT -5
Exciting times.  |
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 21, 2021 17:58:23 GMT -5
Here is the final parts list.
Polini Corsa w/ porting
PG short- maybe swapped with Arrow or PG long later
ScooterTuning modified Big Valve intake
Vforce 4 Reed block
Polini 24mm PWK carb
Stock crank - for now
Polini Air Filter
TFS ZX CVT kit
Malossi Kevlar belt
PG oil block off plate
Koso Temperature Gauge
200mm RPM brake kit in black
New black seat cover
TWH air filter blocker plate
Maybe list
Scooter Swap Shop Aluminum wheels
Koso Tachometer
NCY suspension
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Post by aeroxbud on Feb 21, 2021 19:48:17 GMT -5
That lot should keep you busy for a while.
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Post by hippo008 on Feb 28, 2021 0:12:20 GMT -5
I did a complete teardown of the scooter today. I can already see the appeal of these things. It is designed so much better than the Genuine Roughhouse it's almost silly. The engineers at Honda clearly thought about how to maximize the space within the frame and also still make everything serviceable.
There is some frame rot that has me concerned. Two small rust spots near the welds for the left and right frame rails. I hit them with a wire brush then a hammer and no signs of a problem but I want to be sure.
Almost all the other parts are in perfect shape. The only real problem are the forks. The forks are BUSTED up. I mean somebody really did a number on em. I'm not sure what happened but I think the outer seals went bad and everything turned into a terrarium of rust. So I will be needing some new front shocks. The rear shock is in fair condition so I may reuse it after a cleanup.
I'd like to fit 90/90-10 tires in there if I could. However I've been told 90/90s will rub the rear shock. Supposedly offset shocks exist as well as offset shock mounts. So maybe I'll pick one of those up.
I emptied the gas tank and it's VERY rusty. The gas that came out was rust brown. I picked up some evaporust and some por15 to seal the tank and frame with.
I didn't know this but the Dios have an in-floor fuel tank and vacuum fuel pump. They don't use a gravity fed system like like lot of other scooters do. I thought that was interesting to use a different system. The oil injection tank is located where the traditional yamaha style gas tank would belong. Theres a cute little door below the seat bucket to access the fuel cap.
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