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Post by nelson on Dec 12, 2015 12:01:51 GMT -5
I am in the beginning stages of building a race/ street motor. It will be mina based and I have not decided it it will go in cherry razz or a dilapidated jog. If I use the razz will I run into electrical issues? Razz has different motor so just wondering about that issue.
Ok, this is going to be built with the intention of street racing ( not that I would because that is dangerous) and the occasional trip to the drag strip.
What type of power I am looking for? Mid and top end as I think the bottom end can be ironed out by cvt tuning.I have looked and researched for a few months and can't make up my mind. I think I want to go LC as it's better for performance cylinders. Not to mention there is a lot better flow due to not having to use long studs. I would be content with the 20 hp range, I assume my 90 makes around 12hp (assume). I have looked at a lot of the builds on here and wonder what you guys think? I have a doppler crank in a case ready to go, just don't know what cylinder and pipe. I was looking at the metrakit race I think and like it. But I am open to suggestions and opinions. I would prefer to keep it 70 cc based but open to feedback. I like the look of the pipes with multiple chambers and NO internal baffle. Let's hear your dream builds( within reason 800-1200$) thanks in advance
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Post by 90GTVert on Dec 12, 2015 13:17:04 GMT -5
Hypothetically, what are you trying to street race (scoots, cars)? Whoever pulls up to a red light with you, or $100 says my scooter is faster than your Camaro? Over what distance? Just curious about these imaginary races that would never happen because we're all responsible adults.  What you want is gonna come from a high rev setup, and you'll need to work with the CVT as you said to bypass the dead low rev zone. OR CVTs are great for that. Basically you need more displacement (or to cram more mixture into the physical displacement [higher VE]) or more RPM to make more power. Even the big 100cc+ strokers don't make tons of power at lower revs. They're more limited by transfer volume because of the big bore too and don't do well at much over about 10,500RPM. You can rule the 100cc builds out IMO. It can be done, but a basically sport level 53-54mm jug costs as much as some more capable 70-80cc cylinders. You'd need a Peace Pipe custom made by 190mech to get the most out of it I'd guess, since no one really makes high end pipes for such a build that I know of. You can look at 2strokd's Skeedr thread a while back when he was running such a setup with some track times in the 1/8 mile or check my old T1 stuff out to get an idea of what the 100cc or so builds are like. Not bad at all, but they aren't doing what some of the higher end smaller stuff does and it's all gotta be custom. A lot of the other fellas here have experience with more high end stuff, so they can advise you much better than I on what kit/parts you should check out. You may wanna have a look at PIG's ongoing H20 Conversion thread in the 2T Performance section. Could be of interest to you. I don't really know anything about the Razz's electrical system, but worst case scenario you could build or modify a harness to work with it's lights and handlebar switches and go with regulators and ignition bits from a standard Minarelli. |
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Post by Raizer on Dec 12, 2015 16:31:30 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I last touched a Razz, but my foggy memory says you should have no problem swapping in another Minarelli.
Didn't the Razz still have an upright Mina the same as a Jog engine, but without any form of variator?
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Post by Lucass2T on Dec 12, 2015 18:55:09 GMT -5
$800-1200 won't get you as far as you would think. Budgetting for a street/race setup is the worst thing you can do because there are just too many variables that can knock you over your budget in an instant.
Buying the performance parts is one, then you have to assemble everything which required parts. tools and a lot of small stuff (thought of those?). You'll have to deal with start up problemss before you can really enjoy your scoot, those cost money So i would reserve at least 30% margin for unexpectancies.
Another thing is, do i want speed or do i want acceleration. If you purely want speed you need to swap over less parts. Just buy the 'power adders' (big bore, exhaust, big carb) and leave the cvt parts alone since they don't add power or speed. You'll need taller gears though.
That said.
Cylinder: stage 6 racing/athena racing
Exhaust: Yasuni c16
Carb: 19/21mm dellorto PHBG
Crank: Leave the doppler, unless ist the version with the blue stuffers.
CVT: Polini speedcontrol
Clutch: Malossi delta
This is in my opinion the best start off point for a good street/midrace setup. You can either tune it down with a less revving pipe for better street use. Or you can bump up the cylinders' durations, add a Yasuni c21 and get close to 20hp.
From here you can add an innerrotor ignition, 128mm OR pulleys for better acceleration.
Im a fan of doing things right the first time. Doing things right takes time and money.
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Post by ryan_ott on Dec 12, 2015 21:32:52 GMT -5
Like Lucas's said spend the money and do it right the first time. $800-1200 you are kind of limited. You could spend $500 just on inner rotor and overrange. It adds up quick. Good luck.
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Post by nelson on Dec 13, 2015 10:40:25 GMT -5
I have a friend I can send a cylinder to that can do to port work for me. I have done a bit and I know it's very time consuming. I have plenty of tools minus a timing light. I know it's port cylinder according to the pipe you plan to run. I just wanted some input from you guys. I know "racing" is a very vague term. I would like to run an 1/8 in the 8- low 9 second range. so when I say fast I am thinking 0-70 in a hurry. On the other hand I would like to be able to ride it on the street. I know when a bike is tuned for a specific purpose (racing) it is work riding it on the street. I think stop light to light quick is what I want. I don't mind revving to the moon to get it to move. My 90 jog has great acceleration and plenty of torque for daily riding. I'm just looking to move to something a bit quicker. Something to take out on the weekends and have fun. With performance longevity goes down as well as streetability (that's not a real word:)
Brent, thank you for all the info. My 90c.c runs in the 10-11 k range but flattens out. I know with the transfers and flow of a stock case the 100cc can't really hang with a 15k 70 build.
Lucas, I have built a few cars and more atvs/dirtbikes than I can count. Maybe I should just find a 125/250 cc dirt bike engine and put in. That would leave me having to figure out how to get my back wheel to be a Chain drive and then I Would need another swing arm etc..I'm not stuck on a mina but I have plenty available and would be the easiest since it would bolt up, maybe not to the razz but I make it work.
I have considered the extra pieces in between the big parts and I know they add up.I wish there was a data base with more info on set ups and a bit more detail as to what the set up is capable of.
Thanks to guys for the input. I see the honda af16 and fro what I have picked up it is due to the case tuning. I will be back after some more looking and see what you guys think.
LUCAS,My doppler has the blue inserts. Are you saying that is the trash one?
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Post by nelson on Dec 13, 2015 10:46:26 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I last touched a Razz, but my foggy memory says you should have no problem swapping in another Minarelli. Didn't the Razz still have an upright Mina the same as a Jog engine, but without and form of variator? Yes the razz has a vert mina and NO cut.but I can put anything I want in there. I can make room, stretch etc. I was just concerned about the electrical. |
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Post by Lucass2T on Dec 13, 2015 12:08:35 GMT -5
The doppler with the blue inserts is an excellent crank. The other one with the silver plugs are trash. Make sure you have a 10pin small-end.
edit: 12 pin!!!!
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Post by nelson on Feb 17, 2016 9:27:19 GMT -5
I am fairly certain my doppler crank is a 10 pin. I would think it will be fine for a bike that doesn't get ridden a lot. I assume the issue is the rpms with a 10 mm wrist pin.I am thinking of going with the stage 6 mk2 or the Athena evo (70cc). Or should I get another crank with a 12mm pin before I buy the cylinder? I am pretty sure the 10mm would be okay, anyone have any issues or information would be appreciated!
Thanks
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Post by ryan_ott on Feb 17, 2016 11:58:48 GMT -5
It's been mentioned before and pics posted of failed 10mm bearings. If your set on using the crank you have just run it and periodically replace the wrist pin bearing as insurance.
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Post by Lucass2T on Feb 17, 2016 13:55:57 GMT -5
I am fairly certain my doppler crank is a 10 pin. I would think it will be fine for a bike that doesn't get ridden a lot. I assume the issue is the rpms with a 10 mm wrist pin.I am thinking of going with the stage 6 mk2 or the Athena evo (70cc). Or should I get another crank with a 12mm pin before I buy the cylinder? I am pretty sure the 10mm would be okay, anyone have any issues or information would be appreciated! Thanks I think you're a brave man if you're risking 4/500 dollars (cylinder, crank and cases) over a 200 dollar 12pin crank. I've read a lot of stories about failing 10pin cranks, i've heard professionals say a 10pin cranks can handle up to 10hp and i've experienced a failing 10pin needle bearing myself. You've got all my support when going with a 10pin and i really wanna see you beat all the horror stories that go about 10pin cranks though. |
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Post by nelson on Feb 17, 2016 14:30:41 GMT -5
I am fairly certain my doppler crank is a 10 pin. I would think it will be fine for a bike that doesn't get ridden a lot. I assume the issue is the rpms with a 10 mm wrist pin.I am thinking of going with the stage 6 mk2 or the Athena evo (70cc). Or should I get another crank with a 12mm pin before I buy the cylinder? I am pretty sure the 10mm would be okay, anyone have any issues or information would be appreciated! Thanks I think you're a brave man if you're risking 4/500 dollars (cylinder, crank and cases) over a 200 dollar 12pin crank. I've read a lot of stories about failing 10pin cranks, i've heard professionals say a 10pin cranks can handle up to 10hp and i've experienced a failing 10pin needle bearing myself. You've got all my support when going with a 10pin and i really wanna see you beat all the horror stories that go about 10pin cranks though. I have had a 12 pin fail with less than 200 miles on it, bad things can happen even when everything is correct. Better insurance to go with a 12. Thanks for helping me make logical decision guys |
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Post by nelson on Feb 17, 2016 14:54:49 GMT -5
So mk2 or evo?
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Post by Lucass2T on Feb 17, 2016 15:34:42 GMT -5
Evo is definetly better. And also faster i recon.
Polini cylinders are excellent, they're from the Gilardoni factory which also produces the Rotax cylinders for Aprilia, Rotax kart engines and all sorts of small airplane engines....it's bulletproof quality. I think they use Asso pistons, which are also great quality!
The stage 6 MK2....dunno where they're from also no clue what kinda piston is in there. The Mk1's are from Athena...also great quality and pistons come from Vertex.
If you have a 20HP goal you have a ton of cylinder choices.
A brand:
- Polini Evo
- Old Malossi MHR 6T speed/cross or the more recent 7T speed
- Hebo Manston, Manston revolution or Manston pata negra
- Metrakit Pro Race
- Athena racing when ported (also called Evo or Hyperrace i think)
- Team cristofolini
- Fabrizi
- 2F4R
- Stage 6 R/T
- Metrakit SP2 (tuned down pro race) or SP3 (athena copy)
Then there are TONS of B brand cylinders which can make it to 20hp with some porting.
- Kundo KRD
- Top performances TPR (athena copy)
- Gilardoni/italkit (virtually a Polini evo with oval ex port)
- Airsal
- Barikit BRK (From the airsal factory)
- R-setup
- Naraku racing
- Motoforce racing
- Doppler racing (athena copy)
- Conti (airsal copy)
- etc etc etc
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Post by nelson on Feb 17, 2016 16:02:30 GMT -5
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